Interview with Carol Donaldson at Bedlams Bottom 11.06.25

Anna: Oh, so Carol, what are we looking at here? 

Carol: So we're looking at over Bedlams Bottom, and there's some amazing names. I think that the far end is a place called ladies Hall point(?) on the map. That's what it's called. I've no idea why, but that is the name of it. And even Bedlams Bottom has got different names as well. So on some maps, it's Bedlams Bottom, and on some maps it's Funton Creek. So I'm not sure where one ends and the other begins, but we're looking out over the very end of the Medway estuary before it goes into the Swale, we've got a helicopter going overhead at the moment, 

A: and a bird ?

C: and a bird, a crow, so yeah, it's a great breeding ground for the birds here some of the islands we're looking at over Chetney Marshes and Barksore Marshes is a way to the left, and that's got lots of breeding Lapwing and Red Shank on it as well. And then lots of birds come to feed on the mud of the estuary here in the spring and in the autumn.

A: What are they feeding on on the mud?

C: So the mud, even though the mud looks really lifeless, it's actually like this really rich sort of protein snack for the birds. So we're on something called the East Atlantic flyway. And there's something like 300,000 birds come and migrate up and down the East Atlantic flyway every year. So it's such an important spot for a big population of birds of the Northern Hemisphere, and they stop into places like Bedlams Bottom to feed on lots of little shrimps and crustaceans that are in the mud. So they'll come in in these big groups. And at certain times a year you'd have big flocks of Dunlin and Curlew cooling and a whole range of birds are coming here on migration to sort of fuel up on this kind of high protein crustacean snack bar that the mud is providing for them. So yeah, it's really important place all of these bays along the Thames and the Medway estuary. They look like big, bleak, muddy spots, but they're absolutely vital for first lots of the beautiful wildlife that's That's here. That's why it's all designated all this landscape. It's all part of the Ramsar special protection area, because it's such an important spot for, you know, a big population of the migratory birds. 

A: And what's Ramsar?

C: Ramsar, Ramsar, I believe it's a place in Iran. I think it's where the convention was signed, which is what it's called a Ramsar Convention. And so it's the highest level of protection, really, that we've got in this country for wildlife. Somewhere near here, I think Boris Johnson wanted to build his estuary airport, which wouldn't have been the best place with 300,000 birds getting sucked into jet engines. A very silly location to propose for an airport. And, yeah, obviously all these areas like, you know, so critically important for wildlife, and, yeah, and, and, and hopefully that protection will save it from, you know, inappropriate developments out here.

A: And what other wildlife is here, apart from the birds?

C: So mainly it's going to be birds. I mean, there's going to be things like rabbits. We've just seen them. Well, I've just seen a rabbit in the hills here. You're going to have predators of those breeding birds, like foxes and stoats and possibly hedgehogs out here. So, you know, there'll be things, you know, the great variety of birds is always going to bring in predators, and with the big flocks of birds that come here to feed, you're going to have Peregrines coming down and hunting for those birds, particularly in the autumn and winter out here.

A: where are the Peregrines nesting or sort of hanging out when they're not here, because it's such a flat landscape? They haven't got much cover.

C: Yeah. I mean, Peregrines nest in they're cliff nesting birds, traditionally, but they look for higher places. So they could, I'm not saying they are, but they could be nesting on those wind turbines over there, or they could be nesting on the pylons sometimes. So they'll look for higher places in the landscape to nest. And then, I'm not totally sure if this is true of peregrines, but we have there'll be resident birds, but often again, in the autumn or winter birds. And. And will travel internally in the country, particularly blackbirds are known for this. So we'll get blackbirds. We think blackbirds are a year round bird, and they are. But in certain times of year, the population swells, because we'll get birds coming over from Germany, or our resident blackbirds will take off to France. And so we get migrations happening that we don't even notice. Really. They're not all our birds. They're not our birds. No, no. Birds don't really feel that sense of nationality. I don't think so. They'll, they'll move around depending on the weather and food resources, really. So, yeah, we don't really notice those migrations going on, but they're kind of going on all the time.

A: So interesting. Do you mind if we walk down the hill a bit just there's a bench at the bottom here, and I'm thinking there might be a bit less wind just off the top here. 

C: Actually feels very still here today, isn't it? I think it's that expectation of the change in the weather. And also, I mean, we're at the end of the breeding season, or we're coming to the tail into the breeding season, so everything's probably a bit exhausted, and, you know, it's not setting up territories now. So like, there's often this kind of almost great silence, I think, in the countryside towards the end of June, July, August, because a lot of birds are moulting, so they've gone very quiet and hidden away. It's a bunny fight going on there. Yeah. So a lot of them are moulting, or a lot of them have, you know, the chicks have fledged, their breeding seasons over, you know, so they're busy... getting all their... you know, stocking up on food so they can get for the winter. So, yeah, we've kind of very much notice all the birds in the spring, and then you get this kind of silent part of the summer, when, when the birds will tuck themselves away.

A: When you say, tuck themselves away, what? What are they doing?  

C: they're moulting. They're, you know, if they're moulting, they're not flying so efficiently, so they're kind of hiding away, so that they, you know, and obviously, moulting your feathers takes a lot of energy, so they'll be feeding up a lot, so that they, you know, in a good body weight to get through the winter. So they just become quite quiet and we don't notice them so much.

A: I recognised a crow!

C: Before there was a lovely, you know there was a Song Thrush, you know, there was Oyster Catchers out on the bay, I think if the tide's in as well, then a lot of the birds will, you know, they'll feed here when the muds exposed, they're probably a bit quieter when the tide's in.

A: That's a really good point. And I wanted to ask you, actually, because we spoke before about how you've been doing your bird count, I know you don't call it that, sorry. Yes, you've been doing your surveys, but you, you said that you do it very early in the morning. And I wanted to ask you why that is?

C: because birds are a lot more active in the morning. So it's, I guess, they've come off of the night. They've survived the night. So a lot of birds are calling much more in the morning, which is why we get a dawn chorus and re-establishing territories and things, and then they are, you know, they're much more active. They're fueling up after, you know, resting for the night. So it's a time you come out early in the morning. And if we'd come out here at like, six in the morning, it would be a lot noisier. It would be a lot more birds calling out here. There'd be a lot more activity. So, yeah, particularly songbirds and things I mean, the birds that I'm doing surveys of are Lapwing and Redshank and Oyster Catchers. They are more active in the morning and the evening, but they're birds that are probably quite conspicuous in the places that they breed all day really.     Just got some Gold Finches.... birdwatch. I've got any um things. I think there could be Avocets down there. I think there's pair of avosets. This is like Linnets going overhead. That's a goldfinch. Yeah, I think this is two Avocets feeding down here. Do you know much about Avocets at all? Do you know what an Avocet looks like? So I don't want to be rude, but 

A: Oh no, I'd like you to explain it to me.

C: So an Avocet used to be a really rare bird in this country. Yeah, they're Avocets. How beautiful. And they were only breeding, I think one of the few places they bred in the country was Minsmere in Suffolk, and their numbers have built up quite a lot. They've, they're quite protected birds, and they're absolutely beautiful. They're one of my favorite birds. They're black and white, and they've got an upturned black beak. They're a very, very elegant wading bird. And they walk through the mud, and they're sifting. They sway their heads from side to side, and they're sifting out all of those little insects and crustaceans in the mud. But they're full of character. They're really beautiful birds to see, and so that was really lovely to actually have couple pairs here. They're probably breeding maybe out on one of the islands or on the marshes here. And we've just got, I think there we've got a duck with some ducklings. I can't quite see, I think it's probably a mallard. You can just see, can you see it's got...I think it just had a little brood of ducklings with it. I can only see two adults now, so I think they're mallards there. I think they had little pod of ducklings with them as well.

A: I can see more heads every now and then, 

C: yeah, and skylarks singing out on the marshes, and then that little pipping, I'm not totally, sure, but it's probably a Goldfinch again. So the Goldfinches and linnets, they get into bigger flocks at this time of year, and they're, you know, they will have bred a lot of the young birds around. And the Goldfinch adults have got beautiful red face. They're very pretty birds with a gold flash on their wing. But the young birds are quite sort of grey. And the only reason you know they're Goldfinches is because they've got this, again, they've got this gold flash on the wing. So they're in bigger flocks. And they get into bigger, bigger flocks at this time of year, and they're feeding on all this thistle down that's along the sea walls. And, yeah, anything that looks a bit like, you know, dandylion heads, anything like that. They're feeding on all the seeds. So they're kind of gathering together now in these flocks, I think, Oh, here's one. Just a male landed on that thistle down there. These Goldfinches going over here. Can you see him just there? 

A: I can. He's bobbing his head. 

C: He's picking out all the little seeds from the, from the thistle head.

A: So if you understand more about their behavior, then you know where to look for them, really.

C: Yeah, I guess if you know, you know what the birds are doing at certain times a year, then, you know, I think there's a sort of fine balance. I think I've have problems, not that I'm the best naturalist in the world by any stretch of the the... this is a Whitethroat singing in the back. I'm not the best naturalist in the world, but you can have a problem if you know the names of everything that you're 'identifying' everything all the time, and you can kind of, sometimes that can take you away from enjoying the general scene and the feeling of being out in nature. So I don't think it's necessary to be able to name every single thing. To a certain extent, it can be a hindrance. But I think if you the more you know about nature and what the birds doing and why, why that Goldfinch is feeding on that thistle at this time of year, then it gives you a richer experience of walking in the countryside, I think. And you know, you're more 'in tune' with nature, and you know, it just gives you a greater appreciation of, I guess, the struggle for many of our, you know, birds and animals in the countryside. But yeah, I guess, like anything, isn't it a greater understanding of something gives you a greater depth of experience of, you know, just enjoying a simple walk.

A: I went with Xtina lamb mushroom hunting, okay, and it's transformed to the way I walk now.

C: Oh, okay, okay, yeah, I do. I've met Xtina lamb, so, yeah, I didn't know she was a mushroom forager. Got to be careful, though. After that case in Australia, at the moment where the woman poisoned all her family with the mushrooms, gotta be a bit careful. I've had mushroom poisoning through one of my farmers picked me some horse mushrooms and I made them into an omelette and ate them, and they were just edible mushrooms. But what I didn't know is, if you sometimes, if you eat wild mushrooms, and then you go and have a drink afterwards, it can have a terrible effect on you. I felt like I'd had 10 points of drink and I had, I ended up in A and E, because my eyes were like pinpricks and yeah. So even edible mushrooms can have quite a I didn't know that myself, but yeah, you've got to be careful if you know. It's made me a bit more wary. I think about eating ones, even if they're kind of you're with someone, and those mushrooms are absolutely fine to eat, just don't take alcohol with them afterwards,

A: Right!

C: I've never had that experience before, you know. But, yeah, I think it can happen. And of course, like, you know, it like anything, I dare say, if you eat mushrooms at certain times a year, the concentrations of stuff in those mushrooms is probably different as well. So I think you've got to be a bit careful. I mean, I eat things off the sea wall all the time, you know. So, I mean, I see anything here, but we've got like, sea beet that grows along. Well, I'm always picking up sea beet. Oh, there's some here. What does it look like? It's, it's like, it looks like spinach, basically can be used as spinach. This is all sea beet down here. So those quite dark green, sort of fleshy looking leaves. There's loads of it, but I've also, I've also taken sea beat home and eaten it, and had adverse reactions to it as well. And you've got to be a bit careful, because sometimes some of these plants, particularly along the sea wall, were soaking up nutrients and things from the mud. And the mud has, over many, many years, has got lots of pollutants in it. They used to paint the bottoms of the boats with anti fouling paints, and that's got, like, really, terribly noxious chemicals that are still in the mud here. So you've got to be a bit careful with your what you're eating. Foraging can be hazardous, as I have learned to my cast, you know. So, yeah, I think I'd be a bit I would still eat sea beet, but I wouldn't necessarily eat it in that location there, where it's right on the edge of the mud. Now.

A: So how do the birds avoid these noxious…?

C: I mean, birds are, you know, wildlife is different from us. I mean, they'll have different resilience to certain chemicals and things. And obviously eat things that that we wouldn't be eating, but things like the pollutants in the estuary do cause problems for wildlife, particularly, you know, those those pollutants end up in the food chain. They'll end up in the crustaceans that then end up in the fish, which then end up in the Seals. And of course, you know, every time it goes up the food chain, those pollutants are intensifying, you know, concentrating more and more. So I believe some of the, the, the pollution that's in the water and in the mud has caused problems for seal numbers and fish stocks and things and shellfish. Obviously, you know, that's not a good combination. So yeah. And of course, once these things are in the water and in the mud, you know, it's, you know, it's a moment to put these things out there, but then it's like, you know, hundreds of years before nature can regulate itself. That's a bit of a negative…

A:  Well, no, I think that's, I mean, I remember when I was young, there was a lot of scandal about oil spillages, and it's the same thing, they could contain them, but the the impact was, wasn't, you know, just one stupid mistake and it just kills, 

C: yeah, and sometimes, like, one of the reasons that otters died out in this country was because of a chemical that was being used in sheep dip, and obviously that got in the water and then into the fish and then got into the otters. And that was, I think, was the major reason that otters, you know, I mean hunting pressure, and things didn't help at the time. But, yeah, I think it was. Can't remember the name of the chemical, but it was a chemical in sheep dip that that, that we, you know, pretty much made otters, you know, almost kind of extinct. I mean, they were certainly extinct in Kent, and are only now coming back in very small numbers.

A: Would they come here?

C: Potentially, yeah, they could be feeding around the edges of the coast. Can't say that I've ever seen them here. One of the problems with Kent was because it's so ringed with major roads and railway networks, and that was causing a lot of problems for them to sort of navigate their way back into the county. So eventually, I mean, I don't think, I think it's a slow going otter numbers building up. And sometimes I feel like, where we're doing there's lots of like, re-introductions of species, and yet we should probably spend more money concentrating on the species that are really on the brink in this country, rather than introducing things that you know, sadly are not here at the moment. But you know, yeah, we're losing our own wildlife quite rapidly, and there probably should be more focus on, you know, helping things like otters you know, come back into the country, instead of reintroducing things that you know have sadly got extinct. It's a bit different with things like beavers, because they they're such sort of engineers of nature that they can make a difference for a whole range of species. So I think beavers is a bit of an exception. But

A: do you listen to the archers

C: occasionally? I listen, because I think they're doing a rewilding, rewilding Ambridge, aren't those that will bring beavers back, isn't it?

A: Yeah, they've had a big Beaver storyline,

C: which is amazing, isn't it? Because, yeah, I mean, there's only a few people in this country that are really pushing beavers coming back out of, you know, under the radar introduced beavers. I mean, it is amazing, because now they're swimming outside of Sainsbury's in the middle of Canterbury. And you know, hordes of people are going to watch them. Did you not know that they were introduced into the Stour probably about, I reckon, about 10-15 years ago now, and they've done so well that, yeah, they've got they're swimming up and down outside Sainsbury's right in the center of Canterbury.

They going in for their lunch, norejection, Sainsbury's fingers, but I suppose to a certain extent, I mean, the beavers,

you know, they're feeding on vegetation and things. It's these things are controversial, because the Beavers are right in the center of Canterbury, but they can't move anywhere else now because there's so many bridges and structures in Canterbury, so they're kind of stuck. So I don't know what goes on then, but, but, you know, they're connecting people to wildlife, and people are there, you know, watching them in the evening and putting videos on YouTube. So this isn't to do with the Hulks on we've gone off the track a little bit. Well, I was just wondering if you thought that there was any wildlife that might use the Hulks. Yeah.

So the Hulks, I mean, the Hulks are definitely used as breeding spots, particularly oyster catchers, so around the edge of bucks or marshes, where I used to do surveys, you'd see the oyster catchers breeding on the Hulks there. So they're very safe kind of locations for ground nesting birds to breed. Because, I mean, it's very hard for foxes and things to get to get out there. And then, you know, they're all, obviously, they're all hung with seaweed. And that is a whole, you know, microcosm of wildlife in itself. So in that seaweed will be little insects feeding on that seaweed. And then there'll be, probably below the waterline, there'll be kind of crustaceans and limpets. So they, they kind of like, and because they're made of wood as well, they're breaking down. And that, that wood is, you know, providing nutrients into the water. So they, they do become a whole sort of ecosystem, really. I mean, you know, the problem is they will have had things like anti failing(?) paint painted on them. And, of course, that is breaking down into the water as well. So that's, that's not so good. But, you know, I mean that, you know, obviously they're beautifully atmospheric part of the scenery and and, you know, they do have their their uses for for wildlife. I think this kind of tradition of scuttling unwanted boats in the bays carries on on the Medway all the time, and they, you know, you still, and when I lived at Rainham, you'd come down in the morning and someone would have left a new boat there. Well, that's not so good, because those boats are made of plastic and metals and things and, you know, and also breaking up with the tides, and, you know, releasing all kinds of things into the water. So, yeah, this kind of very. Kind of romantic tradition of these beautiful wooden barges, kind of, you know, with their ribs sticking up and, yeah, that tradition still goes on and is not necessarily such a good thing for the river now to be abandoning your unwanted boat in a creek and often, quite often, in the middle of the, in the middle of the waterway, and a bit of a hazard for other people as well. So, yeah, it goes on. It still goes on.

A: That's interesting. It's got less romance. Definitely. It's reminding me of how people dump a mattress by the side of the...

C: Yeah. I mean, I guess yeah, there's not as much of that goes on as you know, dumping mattresses, but, yeah, but there was an amazing structure on the Swale , just, just really round the headland from here, where someone had created their own floating home and had a pontoon, and they just stuck a caravan on top of it, and someone had just put it there. I mean, one of the things I quite like about the estuary is this kind of, I don't know, sort of chancers, element of people just thinking, I want to, I want to home by the water, and I'm just going to get a pontoon and stick a caravan on it and pitch it up somewhere. And that was there for years, this little floating caravan, just sort of floating in the water to someone, presumably was using for, like, their weekend getaway and but then slowly, it kind of like tipped over, and then it sank, and then it was, like breaking up in the water. So I don't know, eventually, I guess someone must have pulled it out and and got rid of it. But yeah, there's, I've always quite liked that sort of the estuaries always felt like a, place that's... people are still sort of getting away with things, you know. And there's a certain feral kind of freewheeling nature about people feeling that these locations are quite, you know, undiscovered and overlooked, and therefore you can kind of get away. You can fly under the radar a little bit in these these places. So that appeals to me to a certain extent. But sometimes, when it's like people scuttling boats that are then breaking up and causing hazards, then obviously, you know, it's not great really, for for other people or for the wildlife. 

A: So it's off grid, which is good for the wildlife. But when humans get off grid, they potentially start behaving in a slightly anti-social way. 

C: Well, you can't, you know, that's the thing, isn't it? You know, unregulated kind of living, you know, appeals to me. I mean, you know, I I lived in a caravan on the marshes for years, and got evicted from my caravan, so I was living under the radar as well. But, yeah, it's when you're not living in harmony, maybe with other people and your environment, that's, you know, that then becomes a kind of selfish way of living, doesn't it? I think so. By coming for a walk down here, we are informing ourselves and feeling perhaps more in touch with nature, and therefore keener to defend nature and our environment. But are there any, are there any negatives to us actually, coming down to sites like this,

I don't think there's, there's, there's always negatives. I mean, you know, nature is scared of us so, so, you know that is often quite... I often feel quite sad that, you know, wildlife sees us and immediately freaks out and scatters. You know, you think you kind of wish that you could have a sign on you, saying, "I'm okay. You know, I'm not here to shoot you or hurt you". So I guess we always cause a disturbance. You know, when we come out to places like this, and particularly at times of the day, I guess when birds are feeding, it's inevitable that we cause a disturbance, but, but you know, it's as long as we're respectful, you know, you know, small things really, but one of the biggest things is not walking with a dog off the lead and letting it run over the marshes. And that causes far more disturbance for the birds than just gently taking a quiet walk or taking a walk with your dog on a lead round these locations. You know, that's so, I guess it's, you know, you you venture out into nature, and you should look at minimizing your impact as as much as you can, really, and just coming into it gently. I mean, I think, I don't know about you, but I think being here, it's just so calming, you know, it's just so much good for you and, you know, and and. It's given us so much nature, and therefore we should tread lightly upon it and try to live alongside it, not impose ourselves on it in some ways. Yeah, it's very peaceful down here today, which is not great for your sound walk, is it that it's so peaceful, but it is very calming. Yeah, I think because the tide's in and it's getting on to midday and, you know, so it's a little bit breezy, it's the end of the breeding season, so it's quite a quiet time of year. Sorry Anna...

A. So tell me when the sort of optimum time for busyness and noise would be.

C. So the optimum time for busyness and noisiness would probably be six o'clock in the morning on a May day morning. That would be busy and noisy one way, because you'd have a lot of birds singing in these hedgerows. Or the other optimum time would be autumn and winter, I think, when the tide is out and these mud flats are being used by lots of birds feeding. And that would be you'd have lots of birds calling. You'd have curlies. You'd have Oyster Catchers, Redshank you'd have these big flocks of Dunlin, sort of twisting in the sky and flashing their wings, you know? So they suddenly, sort of shape shift from from, from one side to the other, and you get this flash of their wings, which they actually do, to disorientate predators. You know that that would be spectacular times a year to come to Bedlams Bottom. But you know, this is very peaceful. This is, this is giving us something, not not pizzazz, but calmness. Which let's face it is a very valuable commodity,

I think you can get something out of it any time of year, really, if you had a stressful day and you'd come for a walk down here, and it felt like this and this quiet. Then you know you'd you'd come back better able to deal with life, I think so. I know that you've spent a lot of time thinking about how we disturb... on, wildlife on the land, but also on the water as well.

A. Do you think the use of sail power is a positive for nature compared to the use of motor?

C. it's very loaded question, yeah, of course. I mean, I think that, you know, the estuary, can you imagine, suddenly you get a great big jet ski, or, you know, coming into this and, yeah, those things you know, are, you know, people imposing themselves on the landscape? Are they? They're not living alongside the landscape. It's all about noise and war and speed and and and a certain attitude of it's all mine, and I can do what I like. Kind of thing that's not living in harmony with people or nature, is it? So I'm sure they're fun. I have been out have a friend who have one of the little personal hovercrafts, and, yeah, and they're very they, you know, they can go anywhere, but that is the problem. They can go across the mud at low tide as well as on the water. And so they can just, you know, they can just come into an area like this, and everything will have gone up. And one of the reasons that I went out with the hovercraft has just got, I think this might be geese, little flock of geese going over us. One of the reasons I went out with the hovercraft is was to try to sort of encourage them to kind of not go to the most sensitive areas at the most sensitive times of day. So it was kind of, I went out with them, and it was trying to, I guess, you know, educate them, but listening to their side of things as well, and seeing how they could have less impact on these areas. And to be fair, they were keen to listen. But one of the comments was that, "oh well, they'll just seagulls ain't they?" and I guess that's the thing we're saying about, if you don't understand what these birds are doing here, and that they're not all just seagulls, and they've come off of these big migrations, and they really need this short period of time to feed, or they might die that night, you know, because they haven't got enough fuel. Maybe if you think more about that kind of impact that you're having on something, some people wouldn't care. And, you know, you can't make everybody care. But, you know, I think generally people are not terrible, are they? You know, lots of people maybe would think, Oh, well, maybe I don't want all these birds to starve because I've just gone. Razzed around the bay in my jet ski on my hovercraft for five minutes. You know, you'd hope that some people would think twice about doing it if they knew that the impact that they were actually going to have on the wildlife. So, you know, to be fair to the hovercraft, they did listen, but they are problematic. I mean, like I said, they can go across any landscape at any time of day. They're very noisy, and the speed at which they approach wildlife, you know, is, you know, is something that's going to send all the birds up in the air. But equally, I mean, I go a lot of, I do a lot of kayaking out on the river as well, and you've got to be careful with things like that, because, you know, with kayaks, you can also get into places at times of the day that a sailboat can't, you know, so I think it's just respecting that you're just one element in this landscape, and you've got, you don't have to do anything, but you should at least try to, you know, minimize your impact. Think about other wildlife, not think I want to do this, and therefore I'm going to do it, but, but think about the impact it's going to have on on other creatures that are that are having this estuary to survive, not just as a playground.

And so in some ways, it feels like our, you know, the otters were being held back by transport, by trains and by roads. And if we could go back to moving our goods and people via sail, you know, that would, that could help the land dwelling creatures. But I guess even sailboats, if there's a lot of something, if it sort of gets out of whack, it's about a balance, I suppose?

yeah. I mean, it would make a very it would make a huge difference, wouldn't it? If you had the the river traffic that used to be on these areas. I mean, you know, that would be quite a mind change. I think for people now, we think of them as quiet and peaceful, because they weren't at all. They were, you know, busy highways, you know. And I mean, when you go on to the Thames, which obviously still has a lot of big container ships going down it, I mean, it's very impressive to see those boats. They look like they're floating across the land, because the river is so low and the land so low. I think one of the problems with a lot of those boats is that they they think that, like on some of the bays, particularly on the Thames, are just absolutely full of plastic litter, absolutely heaving. I mean, this is amazing, this bay, because we don't there's really not that much plastic litter here, but some of the bays on the Thames are absolutely shocking. They're horrifying with the amount of plastic and micro plastic that's in the soil there. And I've gone out and done little picks with groups, and you're just you, you're doing your best. But the the the litter, the plastic litter is, you know, sort of five, six foot deep. It's just horrendous. And some of that, I think, is because a lot of these container ships are just throwing, not just someone standing on the deck and throwing a plastic bottle, but they're actually just, I think they're dumping their plastic litter in the which obviously got to be illegal, but I think that's what I've heard recently that that is going on, you know, and that's why, partly why, some of it's getting washed down. You know, someone throws a bottle out their car window and it gets ended up in a ditch, and it gets washed down the stream and then ends up in the sea. You know, some of it's got to be that, but the amount of plastic litter on those bays is horrifying, and it's, yeah, it's got to be coming from a source that's just dumping a lot of plastic you think in the river somewhere?

I'm trying to think why the change? Is it? Is it the amount of plastic that we're using, or is it people's attitude? There used to be quite a good advertising campaign when I was really young about not dumping litter, and it used to be really frowned on socially. I'm not sure it's quite the same now.

No, I think there's a there's, it is both, obviously, you know, the amount of plastic, you know, and increasingly so and the, you know, manufacturers and and, you know, I mean, I went into, I very rarely buy my fruit and veg in a supermarket, you know, because I go to a very nice kind of family green grocers that I've been Going to forever, but I bought my food and in Tescos the other day because greengrocers on holiday, and I just couldn't believe I thought these supermarkets going backwards. You know, there's, there was not single tomato that wasn't wrapped in plastic there. Everything was just packaged up in plastic. Now, that's very nice for the supermarkets, because they can make. You buy, you know, 10 oranges when you only wanted one, you know, and you can see the benefits to them, but they're doing nothing to to reduce the amount of plastic waste out there. So obviously, the this seems to, we went a couple of years ago, there was quite a drive to reduce plastics, and that seems to just stopped now. And so supermarkets just, you know, if we don't care and we're not doing anything and we're not protesting about it, then you know, these supermarkets just do whatever's cheapest and best for their profit line when they and so I think the amount of plastic being created is is terrible and needs action. But there is also, I think, a more selfish attitude among people, less social, less, you know, caring about your impact. It's me and mine. And frankly, bugger you. And you know, yeah, she's a bit sad. No, everyone you know, she's a lot of good, caring, socially minded people out there, but there is, I think, yeah, I think attitudes have got worse, definitely.

A. So should we walk back? Yes, okay, because you've got your train to catch. 

Yeah, it's been nice to come down here. Actually, it's beautiful, isn't it? Absolutely ages, so.... I've got a lot of opinions Anna, 

A. I'm loving all your opinions.

C. Oh, it's all got worse. Oh my God, I'm getting really old but somebody needs to be old, somebody needs to have a sense of the past, and therefore the impact of what we're doing now.

It feels like there's a kind of... there's quite an interest in being outraged, which you think, Oh, well, this might help. But actually, the outrage just moves from one thing to the next. You know, it was #me too, and then it and then it was #Black Lives Matter, and #COVID and and then all those people who were shut in during COVID, and the nhs workers, you know, everyone's just annoyed by the waiting lists now, you know, yeah and yes, like you say, about the plastics, it felt like we were getting somewhere. And then you realize...